2007-10-28 [SilverFire]: So to be a myth, it has to have been aroud for X amount of time? And Who decides who old it has to be before it suddenly counts as a myth? The reason most myths didn't start as stories written down was because when they were made, there was no writing. So they became part of an oral tradition instead. If there had been writing, they would have been part of a literary tradition - as happened with older myths as soon as writing was developed. The vampiric myth has evolved in much the same way as ancient myths. Stories get retold, retold and retold, and as that happens, they evolve. That's why there are so many versions of some of the ancient myths. Just because a story doesn't come from the period that one traditionally expects of myth, doesn't mean it isn't myth. Myth is not history, it is fantasy. And you seem to be suggesting that all people like Bram Stoker wanted to do was tell a pretty fantasy story, as if there's no moral aspect to his work.

Every myth has a beginning. There was a point for every myth where it wasn't part of a culture, or a history, it became so because people repeated it. If people talked of Yoda in the same way they talked of vampires, they yes, actually, I would happily accept Yoda as a mythic figure. As is, they don't. But they do talk about vampires in the same way they talk about Gorgons and chimeras. It has become myth, just like the plight of Achilles became myth.

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Like I have said, if you choose to incorporate the vampire concept into your life that up to you. But I do not believe you have the right to simply rewrite the flow of human history for everyone else. Do you? I know I don't. Historical truth is the basis for all humankind. Not a fantasy book. Not for me.

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Tell you what, thinking about it. Lets examine another group that revolve around a fanasy book, perhaps one that is not such a trigger for you. How about GOR? There are quite a few people out there that have adopted it into their lives, live a "gorean" lifestyle and do a great deal on the web, in rp and have written up quite lot of material to support their concept. Is that a valid myth then? Now remember, GOR is another planet, a "counter earth" on the opposite side of the sun. So all this totally ignores our probes, our mapping of the solar system, etc. Yet they are quite convinced that its perfectly ok to follow a code that enslaves, dominates, binds and exalts strength over any other virtue. GOR is one hundred percent fiction. Thousands of people however follow that artificial lifestyle. Which by the way in its extreme form supports kidnapping, rape, training by force to personal service, etc. At what point do we as a community or even as individual souls, support the harming of other beings? Including people? To make a fictional character part of the basis of your life, or worse, to attempt to force it onto others as a reality is not, in my mind, a good thing. Shrugs. Just my opinion of course. But I am a fantasy artist, I don't live in my paintings, they are just an interpretation of things I see around me in my own chosen way of expression. At no point would I ever expect anyone to believe any of it is real. In fact, I would be a bit horrified if they did.

2007-10-28 [Sunrose]: This marathon is supposed to be about creatures, to make the best informational page about them as can be found online. Whether they are truth, legend, myth, fabrications, etc: all approaches should be given attention.

I think we're losing sight of this intention when we start to combat each other what is truth and what is not: Even historical truth can be debated and no one here can force another to take on a belief/opinion/etc.
So let's not get lost in that issue and respect everyone for whatever they do or do not believe in :)

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Sounds good to me, as the entire reason I brought things up was the further definition of the purpose of these references as stated :)

2007-10-28 [Sunrose]: As for the question whether or not to place nymphs among the fea, wikipedia separates them. If I do a Google search for images they get very distinctive results.
So I think it's OK for us to separate them as well :)

2007-10-28 [SilverFire]: I don't believe I said anything about re-writing the flow of human history for everyone else. And re-reading my comment, I'm not really sure where you got that impression from, and it certainly wasn't the impression I intended to give. Nor did I say that I incorporate the vampire concept into my life. Personally, I don't care about vampires, I'm just interested in what counts as myth or not, and why. So no, vampires aren't a particular "trigger" for me, and I don't really know where you got the idea that they were from. My previous comments stand for whatever example you give.

Old mythos incorporates into it's beliefs a geocentric model of the universe and many other "facts" which modern science disproves, if your point against gorean "myth" is that it goes against modern scientific evidence, then that is a point against all myth. Leaning on extremism is also an invalid form of argument. Everything in it's extreme will allow concepts that "normal" people find horrifying. As for making fictional characters part of your life - this is exactly how myth started out. At some point people actually believed the stories of Achilles.

But this discussion has gone off-topic and is just cluttering the page now. If you really want to continue this discussion, we should take it off this page. :)

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Nope, I got the clarification I wanted, thanks :) I think I will suggest though that sources be quoted and a bit of good information on just where the offered material comes from would be a great idea. For the sake of accuracy.

2007-10-28 [Sunrose]: Aye, so far I think sources have been quoted (as in linking to the original articles). Artsie probably knows more about this though :)

2007-10-29 [Artsie_ladie]: Actually, I'm finding everyone's comments & points of view very interesting. Discussion is important in any project or endeavor. I would like to see all sides covered about each creature. People will ultimately form their own opinion when they are provided with all of the information. I would like to see more discussion, actually. I took the liberty & set up Elftown Creature Marathon Discussions & I moved this discussion there. It is open to/for all Elftowners to participate in. Actually, [Hedda] knows more about what is expected here. It would be my guess to be all informative, b/c the best can't be achieved, if parts are left out. :P

2007-10-29 [Sunrose]: So what do we need to discuss then? :P

2007-10-29 [Artsie_ladie]: Well, I can't think about what there is to discuss at this very moment, but I'm sure there will be many questions & opportunities to discuss topics in the future for we've barely begun this project & there are many, many more to go. I would like to see the community of Elftown involved in this project on a much larger scale than it is at present, too. :P

2007-10-29 [Sunrose]: Hmm, I don't want to tread on your enthusiasm, but I don't agree with this idea.
The goal is to collect information, not to discuss the information. And we want/need people to collect it, not to discuss, fight or only talk about it: work needs to be done.
The marathon shouldn't be made complicated. If there is a question about a creature, it would be better asked at the creature page.
If there is something that needs to be discussed, it would only be the procedure and similar issues. For this we already have the crew-page...

2007-10-29 [Artsie_ladie]: Yes, the goal is to collect information, but I see no reason why information can't be collected and also have a place to discuss certain issues that crop up. Usually, one feels compelled to keep what they want to say at a minimum in a comment section on an official page, but a wiki page hasn't this limitation. Yes, we have a Crew page, but this is for the Crew. An open discussions' page allows for ALL Elftowners to become involved should they wish to do so. I would really like to see this become a more extensive involvement by the Elftown community. The more that become involved, the greater chance we have of finding more information. I want every Elftown member to feel their input matters, as long as they are seriously interested, of course. Having a discussions' page is certainly not going to hurt anything in having such. It's a bit of a reach, perhaps, in my hope for more involvement, but I'm willing to try different avenues to bring in a greater interest. :PP

2007-10-29 [Sunrose]: If you think discussions will get more people to create the work,  then you should pursue that :)
I'd just like to keep the rest of the pages more on topic, that's the main issue for me.. :)

2007-12-21 [sea nymph]: the pages for mostly that I find are on topic its just there is no way to tell is a wiki page is really active or a contest is really active unless you just go by the dates people wrote last mabey we should start flagging or pointing out those dead pages!

2007-12-21 [Sunrose]: Just because people haven't spoken for a while, doesn't mean a wiki is dead. It's kind of impossible to know, unless you ask the owner (if still active) and/or leave a comment asking for watchers to inform you.
And even when the wiki is not active anymore, doesn't mean it can't be reactivated.
If people stop linking to wiki's they consider to be dead, then you'd not have a big chance of ending up there..

2007-12-22 [Artsie_ladie]: *nods* I'm still watching this page, as with most, that are connected to Elftown's Creature Marathon. :)

2008-02-21 [Teufelsweib]: Now there are badges for the participants in the ECM-art competitions, but are they also distributed for the photography section?
I was wondering, since there have been no badges given to the participants for the ECM-vampire photography...

2008-02-21 [Artsie_ladie]: Thanks for bringing this to our attention, [Teufelsweib]. This matter will be looked into. :)

2008-02-21 [Teufelsweib]: oh ok! it's just because someone asked me whether they would be getting badges or not, and I didn't know it myself either.
you're welcome! ^^