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Page name: Support Gay Marriage [Logged in view] [RSS]
2007-10-27 19:48:15
Last author: Linderel
Owner: thestranger
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Support Gay Marriage!


The original and largest support group for gay marriage on Elftown


This is a wiki for those who wish to discuss their support for gay marriages, or simply wish to express it

It's time for us Elftowners who support gay marriage to speak up! There's Kissing, Kissing Girls, KissingBoys, Safe Zone, RecruiterThe_Sanctuary and Here For You- Let's ALL band together and make a difference!



Everyone is welcome to join, whether you are gay, bi, lesbian, confused, asexual, or heterosexual it doesn't matter! As long as you support GAY MARRIAGE and GAY RIGHTS 100% Just add your name to the member list at

-->Support Gay Marriage Members



<img: http://www.elftown.com/img/drawing/38056_1099259777.jpg>

By: Anonymous - 1st!

Congrats on 1000 Members!!




To place a banner in your house:
1. Go to Support Gay Marriage Banners and pick one that strikes your fancy.
2. Copy the code under the banner you want.
3. Go to change your personal data and place the code in your description.
4. Save the changes and you're good to go!


Support Gay Marriage Banners-


PLEASE put a banner in your house to show your support. I moved all the banners to another page, to leave more room for our growing list of members, and so you don't have to scroll so far down to get to the discussion.


SGM Speak-out!-


Since we were getting quite a collection of poetry going here on the main page, I made a seperate page for it. If you would like to add a poem, story, sentiment, or essay (i.e. any form of written literature) please add it here. The more the better! Speak out for Gay Marriage!


SGM Supporting Wikis-


Other elftown wikis that support gay marriage are listed here. This stemed out of a dispute that I would like to to have to have again. If you have a wiki that supports gay marriage, feel free to add it here.

Hope: For those who Support Gay Marriage-


New section to promote good news worldwide for gay marriage. We need reporters to help us out, more details in the wiki.

SGM Quotes-


Quotes that reflect the Support Gay Marriage idea, that speak of love and quality. Inspiration in abundance.

SGM letter to the president- Under going construction!

[This iption will be down for a month or a little longer. I do not know yet. Sorry ladies and gentlmen!]
Everyone who has an opinion and wants it heard, send [eyes of frost] a paragraph with your full name speaking about what you feel. This in turn will be sent to the president in a letter about why gay marriage should be allowed to happen. ((OR)) Put a line under the letter and other paragraphs, and put your addition here with your full name. This letter will be sent to the president when it is done. The more the better. THank you, [eyes of frost].




ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS!:



The 1000 Members Banner Contest is now officially closed: the winner is [No Longer On Here] and the runner up is [Kelaria]. Congrats guys!

All members who have also joined Elfpack (http://www.elfpack.com) - please join the Support Gay Marriage wiki there too. It's a mirror of this wiki, only will have a different list of members (different people who belong to each one, or both if your so kind :D )


[1415 MEMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
[585 till 2000!!!!!!!!!!!]
[85 to 1500, yayayay]



Username (or number or email):

Password:

2008-08-12 [1a2]: Well, I am a die hard fan of this wiki, but I branched off and made my own.

I'm trying to get it out there to help people, so if anyone might be interested in taking a look(no obligation) it's be great.

(No this isn't a lame ass publicity for the benefit of my own wiki type comment. I really want to help)

2008-08-15 [The real life Bella Swan]: What's the name?

2008-08-23 [The Chronicles of Faelan]: I'll go check it out too :)

2008-11-04 [Zab]: Ok, how about bringing some life into this site? Anyone up for a discussion or something?

In Sweden, we technically accept gay marriage. (this is a bit debate right now), but it's not allowed to be called marriage.
But all legal rights and everything such is the same. So, we have:
Church marriage (heterosexual)
''civil'' marriage: heterosexual
and ''partnership'' (homosexual)
All of them has the same legal status, the big diffrense is the name.

One solution that's up, and that I would agree to, is that the word marriage would only be used if you're married in the church.
So that ''civil marriage'' would be called something else, and would be the same for homosexuals as heterosexuals. Let's say we call it ''blubb'' just to give it a name :P

I believe that that way, people would eventually give ''blubb'' between two men or two women the same status (in peoples heads) as it would be between a man or a woman, and the same as church marriage. I don't think that will happen as long as gay marriage is called ''partnership' and heterosexual marriage still has ''marriage'' together...

I can see why christian people don't want homodsexuals to marry and call it marriage, marriage is an old word for the child-creating relation between a man and a woman,blessed by God. It's more religeous han anything else, actually. And, the Bible does make it clear that sex between two men or two women are wrong in the christian belief. You can't really argue about that.

(I'm not christian, and I couldn't care less what the bible say, but after reading it... I also can't understand why anyone so desperatly wants to be part of a religion that say that the person you are are wrong and evil and has to change.. I can see how someone would think 'I like that part, but that is just bullshit'', however.. then they shouldn't ask to be blessed in the name of that.. if anyone understands?)

Well what do you people think? :P

2008-11-04 [†Sweets†]: That my eyes hurt and I'll read it tomorrow :D
Join:
stop the remake of the rocky horror picture show!

2008-11-04 [Snap Dragon]: they are remaking the rockey horror picture show!?<img:44166_1164145147.gif>

2008-11-04 [†Sweets†]: Yeah, the stupid people. Join.

2008-11-04 [Balthizar]: Actually you can Zab..because the rule against gay marriage was before Jesus, and Jesus did say that all commandments and rules before him do not apply anymore.
If you want to make those apply, then woman cant wear mens clothing, and guys cant shave.

2008-11-04 [Zab]: hm, I have to look into that :P

2008-11-04 [Snap Dragon]: i like wearing pants >< and i hate dresses MEH!

2008-11-04 [†Sweets†]: Do you guys join?

2008-11-21 [Zab]: Now I've emailed our politics to vote for gay marriage in sweden. They say that each sent email represents about 800- 1000 people in statistics.

What have you done today? :P

2008-11-21 [Balthizar]: Watched CSI-NY, played WoW, getting ready for work, and helped my grandmother when she fell.
<<
I'll save the world later.

2008-11-21 [†Sweets†]: o.0

2008-11-24 [Silver Moon]: can I join?

2008-11-25 [†Sweets†]: yeah. go to the join page.

2008-11-25 [Silver Moon]: i saw it later lol

2008-11-29 [†Sweets†]: lol good job

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Anyone still here?

2009-09-22 [Balthizar]: <-

2009-09-22 [Alexi Ice]: I am.

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Alright, you gay supporters... tell me something.

Why do you think gay people should be allowed to be together?

Homosexuality isn't a natural thing, so why do we allow two people of the same gender to be together? Is it because they truly love each other? Should love be respected more than social norms?

And do you believe people are born having a preference for one gender over the other or do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

2009-09-22 [Zab]: One: It is natural.
Two: You don't chose it yourself.
Three: Even if you concider it unatural..is that a reason not to? I suppse you don't drive cars, use glasses or eat icecream, nit to mention drinking milk.
Four: If twho persons of the same sex enjoys staying together, they are happy and it hurts nobody else.
If you keep them from staying together they're not happy, and nobody else is either. Except perhaps people feeding of others pain, and since such people actually harm others, in differense to homosexual couples, they arn't to be counted with. End of discussion.

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Excellent points. You are correct.

Now... what are your thoughts on pedophiles? People who have sex with little girls or boys... that's wrong, is it not?

2009-09-22 [Zab]: Pedophiles harm the children mentally and physically and that's what's wrong with it.

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Not necessarily. What about consenting children? Children typically become sexually aware around the age of 12, so what's wrong with that? If the child is fully aware of what they are doing and is physically prepared, why can they not be with someone who loves them? Love is blind, right? So why can't a 62-year-old man and a 13-year-old girl be together?

2009-09-22 [Zab]: Because a child that age isn't fully aware of what she/he is doing and doesn't have the understanding. And although we are getting sexually aware at that age, they're not physically ready for it either way.
And even if there would be one, single child that indeed was completely ready and truly in love, you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from all the ones that got fooled into it and toyed with, who confuse parent, family or friend love with sexual love. And those grow up and realize what a mess it was and is harmed by it.

2009-09-22 [Balthizar]: Mort seems to be playing The Devils advocate.

2009-09-22 [Zab]: I know ^__^

2009-09-22 [Balthizar]: Doing a good job too. Bringing up some pretty decent points.

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Who are you to say what the child is or isn't aware of? It should be for them to decide. You know that sex with underage children has been practiced for hundreds of years, right? In ancient Rome, Sparta, and even in Colonial America. Until recently, it was considered perfectly normal.

"you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from all the ones that got fooled into it and toyed with"

Isn't that the same for any age though? People of all ages are fooled into what they think is 'love'.

And what about the people who like little children? Do you expect them to get over it and date people their own age? They can't help the way they feel, because they were born that way...

2009-09-22 [Zab]: The child is too young to decide that alone, and way too young to take the consequenses if pills or condoms fail. Not to mention the imbalance in power between a child and an adult, and I'm not speaking physically. Children can be taught to do things they really don't like if they think that's necessay for them to be oved and appreciated.

''People of all ages'' doesn't have to deal with the child-parent feelings and instincts.

No, I expect those people to live alone if they can't overcome their need for small children. What will they do when the child grows up? Leave it for a younger one? If they can't wait, it's not love, only lust. And definetly toying with feelings.

The differense between pedophilism and homosexuality is that pedophiles do harm children. End of story. Homosexuals are two adults that know the consequenses and hopefuly are mature enough to take good decissions. Kids can't do that.

And frankly, I don't think anyone younger than 17-18 should have sex at all.

2009-09-22 [Balthizar]: Children (females atleast) Used to get married as early as 12 in England correct?

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Ah... so you say that by only loving small children, and not the person individually, they are only in the relationship because of lust? So you're saying that if they don't love people their own age and aren't willing to wait, it isn't love?

What about gay people then? I'm talking about people who date only people of the same gender, not necessarily bisexuals. Are they only in relationships for lust because they aren't capable of loving outside a specific gender?

"pedophiles do harm children"

You're speaking in absolutes here. Not all pedophiles harm children. In some cases, it's the sexually curious children who come on to older men. I know that when I was 12, I would have banged a teacher or two that I had if I ever had the chance. Does that make the teacher a bad person for enjoying what the child does to them though?

2009-09-22 [Balthizar]: Mort does his homework. O.o

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Mort is a straight 'A' student, son.

2009-09-22 [Zab]: Small children grow up. People don't generally change gender.
Gay people, as heterosexuals, love the person. If you don't love the person it is purely lust. Lust is fine - in a balanced relationship that's not infected by a childs naivity together with the grown ups responsibilities against the child. And where both parts know it is not love, but lust. Children can not understand that.

Yes, all pedophiles harm children, mentally, and/or physically. They cause problems that might not show up untill the vchild is older, but it's not less severe.

And really Mort..your attempts to the discussion now is just getting sad.

2009-09-22 [Balthizar]: Son? ;-;

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Not in Neverland they don't!!

But, I digress... What if an older man or woman was legitimately in love with a 12-year-old child. The child is sexually aware and wants to have sex. The older person also wants to have sex. Why should they have to wait several years before they can express their love for each other? Because children at that age are 'vulnerable' and 'naive'? Women were once considered to be 'vulnerable' and 'naive' too, but that wasn't completely true. Now that they have rights, they've proven themselves. They've shown us that they can actually handle themselves in the real world.

Your views on the mental capabilities of children are a bit biased. You have all these preconceived notions that children at that age are supposed to be stupid and unknowing, when they can actually be quite prepared to face the problems us adults must face everyday. Some of them may even be more capable of handling things than most people over the age of 18...

2009-09-22 [Zab]: Because it is still a child.

Not stupid, not at all, but they don't have the expereiences and stability you (hopefully) have as an adult. It's about time, not stupidity. And the kids who do in fact have enough experience to know the world and the risks, doesn't win anything on complicating their lives with matters of sex. If the old man really love the child, he'd know better than to screw her but instead be a support to her through the first part of her life. Just that kind of love makes things more dificult and can be very hard to resist. Simply, young children do not know what it's really about.

And not all adults are mature enough for aloving relationshiup and sex either, but it's a bigger chance that they've gotten the insight and wisdom than a child.

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: What about retarded people? They are perpetually stuck with the mindset of a child much younger than a 12-year-old. Are you saying they should never be able to have sex? Why would you do that to them? They're already handicapped, jerk!

"complicating their lives with matters of sex"

Is sex really that complicated? It's like a small, simple puzzle. You put one piece into the other one, take it out, and repeat. Not only that, but it feels good. And children are known to enjoy puzzles and feeling good, so why deny them of the joys of sex?

KI-YAH! TAKE THAT, HORSE! *kicks a dead horse*

2009-09-22 [Zab]: Depends on the type of handicap. Some won't know what it's about either way, and some would.

If you think tha's all there is to sex, you didn't do your homework.

2009-09-22 [Mortified Penguin]: Oh, I did my homework. I even got some extra credit. *wink*

So, yeah. Don't forget that thing that I was arguing about... whatever it was...

2009-09-23 [Zab]: You were comparing homosexuality to pedophiles.

2009-09-23 [Mortified Penguin]: Yeah, that. Don't forget it.

Now, before I end up sounding like an advocate of having sex with children, let me just say that my point here is to show that gay rights supporters are usually pretty hypocritical and act just like the people they despise when it comes to other issues... of course, it probably would have been a better argument if I had chosen someone other that pedophiles as an example though... *eats ramen*...

And don't forget to eat at Bob's Diner!

2009-09-23 [Zab]: I think you asked the wrong person to prove that theory on, as I actually go after harm caused by it than societys norms. Had you chosen a different example, I might have just agreed with you.

2009-09-24 [Alexi Ice]: Why do you think gay people should be allowed to be together?

Homosexuality isn't a natural thing, so why do we allow two people of the same gender to be together? Is it because they truly love each other? Should love be respected more than social norms?

And do you believe people are born having a preference for one gender over the other or do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 

Ok..Here goes - A. Homosexual people have every right to be together. The population on the earth is overflowing, humanity in and of itself is destroying mother earth. Children everywhere are dying, starving, being abused and so on so forth...when two people of the same sex get together,they GENERALLY can not have children unless induced. Most adopt a child in need. It is a good way to stop the over population.

Also, they do straight people no harm. It's not like they are aliens. Just people, just people who want to love. Love is a universal emotion. And what are 'social norms?' just what's normal at the time. Didn't you yourself say that back in the colonial days it was a 'social norm' to have sex with children? These norms are ever-changing, just as people, and society as a whole, changes as well. You can't expect things to stay the same forever. As people become more and more willing to accept things that are differnt, more and more of these differences will be pulled into limelight. Fact is; people have ALWAYS been gay. They have not always been open about it, but coming out is a lesson in acceptance and character. Not everyone is ready to open up to the fact that gays exist. but they DO exist. Denying them rights is like denying people the right to breath. You can say it's wrong, but they are going to do it anyway.

And yes, I think for the most part, people are born a certian way. But I also think it has a lot to do with parenting and discovery.

2009-09-24 [Alexi Ice]: About the pedophile thing - Allowing men or wemon who are older to have sex with children is wrong. Period. If these children are mature enough to have sex and know what they are doing, risk STD's and children, then they should have jobs, live on their own, exc. exc. no? Maturity is something that comes with age. And yeah, people mature ahead of others, but does that make it right? No.

Older people who 'fall in love' with children were typically touched/raped/abused at a young age themselves, which programed their minds to belive that this behavior is a correct one when the people who abused them were just as much at fault. As I said about the homosexuality, it has a lot to do with parenting and the way people are raised.

With the rampant desise spreading around these days allowing people to have sexual relations with children is only going to make it worse, and force it upon a younger generation which is unfair and unnecessary.

A man who loves only children, or a woman who is the same, is like a dog owner who only wants puppys. You can't let them grow up and throw them away. Dogs may be easily disposed of, but someone who has sex with a child then gets tired of them when they get older is not only physically abusing them but mentally abusing them as well.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: A man who loves only children, or a woman who is the same, is like a dog owner who only wants puppys. You can't let them grow up and throw them away. Dogs may be easily disposed of, but someone who has sex with a child then gets tired of them when they get older is not only physically abusing them but mentally abusing them as well.

But is that not the same thing gay people do? They only love one single gender and are incapable of loving someone of the opposite sex.

Let's take Mr(s). Garrison on South Park as an example (not a very good example, but bare with me here). When Mr(s). Garrison changed genders without telling Mr. Slave before hand, it upset Mr. Slave and made him leave Mr(s). Garrison. Mr. Slave was only in the relationship for lust, otherwise he would have stayed with Mr(s). Garrison and supported his/her choice.

It would be the same with any gay couple if this were to happen. They're not in love with the person, but they're in love with the gender.

So why should we reward these lustful people and treat them like heroes? If anyone ever tries to fight for gay rights, they're supposedly fighting for a just cause. Anyone who opposes them is labeled as 'ignorant'.

Is it really ignorant to have moral standards?

2009-09-24 [Alexi Ice]: Moral standards? What's moral about denying people the right at happiness?

Southpark is a terrible example.

If your in a relationship and wish to change genders then you should tell the person you are with. That's a case by case basis, don't you think? How many times do you really think people who are in love with one sex change genders? That's not entierly smart.

People of the opposite sex and pedophiles are much different. It's unfair to compare them.

Gays can be in it for lust, yeah, just as some straight people are only in it for lust. But straight people are aloud to be together, to have sex, to love and leave? Why should gays be any differnt just because some narrow minded people don't understand?

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: I agree with [Alexi Ice]
Not all gays are in it for lust! I love my girlfriend as a person, I got to know her as a friend before starting a relationship.
And to compare all gays with pedophiles is wrong!
By the way...who defines 'social norms?'
Seems to me that when it comes to arguments between whether or not someone of the same gender can get married they claim the reason it shouldn't happen is because the bible claims it is 'unnatural' but what bible are you going with?
And to claim gay marriage is unnatural is stupid if it is so unnatural then why do you have so many people that are for it?
I want to marry my girlfriend but the law says we can't because we are of the same gender. What ever happened to division of church and state?
And [Mortified Penguin] what right do you have to compare us homosexuals to pedophiles? this type of stereotyping of people needs to stop. Get to know someone as a person before you decide to pass judgment on them.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: [Silver Moon]. Let's say that hypothetically your girlfriend developed some sort of new disease that changed her into a boy. Would you still love her and want to be with her?

I'm not going by any bible. I never even suggested I was religious. Just because I believe in a general code of conduct, doesn't mean I worship a higher power.

Just what right do you have to say that all pedophiles are bad people? You tell me not to pass judgment, yet you do exactly that.

Besides being morally inferior, gays are genetically inferior as well.

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: Some of these arguments are pretty sad I must say. Just why are we comparing Gay relationships to pedophelia? There's a world of difference between both. I have to agree with [Alexi Ice] and [Silver Moon] with their points...

I would love to be able to go out into the world, to look my mom in the eye, or any of my other family and tell them that I am bisexual. I would love to marry the woman that I am with now. But in a day and age so terrified of homosexual behavior, especially where I live... Its nearly impossible. A handful of my friends know, and really that's it. Until the fear and utter dislike fade away with knowledge, we are either left in the shadows or shunned, which needs to change.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: Like I once told Misty, trying to show her the inferiority of gays:

Picture this... there are some purple cats and some red cats. The red male cats mate with the red female cats. They have kittens and raise a whole new community of red cats. The purple male cats mate with the other purple male cats and the purple female cats mate with the other purple female cats... in a few years, they have no new community of cats to show for it. Now, eventually the red cats have too many babies, prompting them to put a few up for adoption. The purple cats, feeling that they will have nothing to show for their lives if they don't have any kittens, end up adopting some red cats. Over time, the purple cats' red kittens grow up and mate with either gender. Whatever they prefer. As time goes on, all the purple cats end up dying out, because they never had any real kittens of their own. The new communities of kittens, the red cat kittens and the purple cat kittens are all red, as the purple cats were forced to adopt, instead of naturally having kittens as nature intended. I'm sure throughout history, some red cats will have some of the same genetic deficiencies that the purple cats once had, but it doesn't matter, because they won't have any true children, because they'll be too busy getting into cat fights, having intercourse with the same gender, and generally being a burden on the cat society... So, in conclusion, the purple cats were inferior to the red cats, because they died out, whereas the red cats flourished, and even took advantage of the foolish purple cats by making them raise red cats and mooch off the purple cats' resources. Like many unsuccessful breeds of animal, the purple cats failed and died out due to a deficiency the red cats overcame. It's evolution, baby... But anyway... the point of this story is to inform you not to buy a purple cat as a pet... or even a red cat... but instead, invest in a dog.

You people here are the same kind of people who would say that black people aren't inferior or that women aren't inferior... You speak without taking into consideration facts or evidence. You speak only with emotions and not logic... *eats ramen*... you people disgust me...

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: You know something Mort? You're completely wrong. Being gay, being a woman, being someone of a different race, that doesn't make anybody inferior. the only inferior being here right now is you because you insist upon making such stupid arguments. Who cares? The point is, that no matter who you are and what your sexual preference is... It doesn't make you inferior or wrong. As you said, 'It's evolution, baby'. Times are changing, everything is changing, that doesn't make it wrong, it only means that gradually the world is getting used to the idea of a world without slaves, though that's not saying there still aren't people in that sort of situation. A world where women have rights, even though in some parts of the world they are still restricted. And a world in which gays can come out and show who they are and what they love- without being ridiculed or killed, though again that sort of thing still happens. The world is changing, and so are we. That's the main point there. And if you can't accept that, you'd do best to just jump ship now because your argument is just getting more and more pathetic.

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: I would love my girlfriend even if I was a male or she was a male. the fact is I love her for her personality.
Mort. you sound like an ignorant racist. Why is it you compare us to pedophiles? pedophiles harm children!

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: Women deserve rights, as do other races. Everyone deserves the same chances and the same opportunities. I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying that, with those same chances and opportunities, women and black people, as a whole, aren't going to go as far as men and other races besides blacks.

If I were saying that I hate black people and that women are nothing but trash, that would be bad. That would make me a hate-filled person. However, I didn't say anything like that. I stated facts, not emotional opinions.

Saying that most black people are more athletic than any other race would be a fact. Saying that most women make better nurturers than men is a fact.

You said, "being someone of a different race...doesn't make anybody inferior."

You seem to think I'm a white guy who thinks his race is dominant. The truth of the matter is I'm Hispanic. Not only that, but white people currently aren't the completely dominant race. The race with the most potential right now is the Asians. The race with the lowest potential is black people. Black people are, generally, brutish and confrontational. I'm not saying they all are like that, but that most of them are.

I don't know why people try to deny such facts and shout "racism" all the time.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: I would love my girlfriend even if I was a male or she was a male. the fact is I love her for her personality.

In that case, YOU ARE NOT GAY. This makes you a bisexual. If you are capable of being with someone of the opposite gender, then you aren't gay. Bisexuals are alright people. It's homosexuals that I'm talking about here...

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: Mort, do you or do you not support Homosexual relationships? Bottom line being: If you don't support them, why are you here?

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: I give up trying to prove truth to you. I don't care who you are, if you want to argue blindly, then so be it. But take it elsewhere because its getting old.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: And let's take a look at North Africa, shall we? It is the most God-awful place in the world. It is constantly plagued with war, disease, famines, and a whole lot of other problems. However, if we take a look at South Africa, we can see stability, peace, working governments, and even technological advances.

North Africa is predominantly black people. South African is predominantly white people that settled there from Europe. The fact of the matter is, black people are an underdeveloped race.

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: Love is love. It is wrong for you to classify homosexuals like this. Frankly you still are sounding racist. Take a step back and read over your comments. I don't know what your issue is but it seems you are insecure about something and you need to take it out on others.
Please start to look at people and know them not judge them by color, gender or so on.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: How am I arguing blindly? I speak facts. Facts=truth. So therefore, I speak truth. Yet, you seem to think that you are the one speaking the truth and you refuse to even listen to logic.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: [Silver Moon], I don't judge individuals by their color or race. I judge the entire group of people as a whole by the majority of their actions. When it comes to a single person though, I'll get to know them before fully forming an opinion of them.

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: your logic is flawed. There are good people and intelligent people in all areas of the world there are also those who aren't 'race' does not matter. besides the only reason people have a difference in the color of skin is due to what their environment and ancestry is. When it comes to it....People are people. It doesn't matter what color you are or where you come from as I said you have people that are both intiligent and stupid that come from every 'race'

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: you didn't answer my other question, Mort. And it may seem logical to you, but your whole reasoning is flawed. Just stop, do as [Silver Moon] suggested and look over what you've been saying. It's completely different than what you're trying to say now.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: I agree that each race and gender is capable of producing intelligent offspring. But, for some, it doesn't happen as often as for others.

Think about piranhas. You don't stick your hand into a fish tank full of them, but why not? Because most of them are known to bite. They've been know to eat entire cows in a matter of seconds. That doesn't mean that these piranhas are like that though. They are actually probably friendly, because they've been domesticated. They live in a new environment where they don't need to feed in a frenzy to survive. They receive regular feedings now.

Still though... you don't stick your hand into the tank. Does that make you racist against the piranhas? Just because other piranhas are dangerous doesn't mean these are, so why do you not stick your hand in that tank? I'll tell you why. Even though these piranhas are living in a new environment, they still most likely have their old traits. They'll most likely bite your hand.

You aren't a racist for not sticking your hand in that tank. You are a cautious, smart individual who used logic to avoid a potential painful situation. It may not have ended in a frenzy on your hand, but then again, using logic and reasoning together with facts about other piranhas, you can see that it most likely would have.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: And I do NOT support homosexual relationships, [Ravendust].

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: Then WHY are you here? There's no reason for it. This is a place for SUPPORT.

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: Exactly and the examples you use are stupid.
Are you here because you like offending people? If that is the case then you have succeeded please take your 'logic' elsewhere. I seriously think your comments stem from insecurity.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: When you are against something, you have to confront that something. Where else would I go to do that? Do you expect me to go to a church and talk about how gay people are bad? No. That isn't in any way productive.

What if the Allies had done that in WWII? What if they had just got together and talked about how bad Hitler was and how he's killing people. That would have accomplished nothing. They had to go directly to the source of the problem and confront it before any progress was made.

2009-09-24 [Linderel]: Tsss. Hitler card. You've just lost.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: Not quite! I still have yet another card to play! *pulls out Blue-Eyes White Dragon*

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: The problem, Mort, is that this wiki is in support. If you don't want to show support then go off and create your own wiki or whatever. This place isn't the place for your 'logic' and whatever other insecurities you have. This was created for support, now you should just be on your way and leave this place alone.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: Ha ha... "This place isn't the place for logic".

This wiki was dead when I got here. In fact, you might should thank me for the work I've done reviving it.

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: as I have said I don't think you trully realize all of the crap you keep saying. Read over your comments. And now you seem to compare homosexuals to Hitler? That is even more weak of you.

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: I didn't say this isn't the place for logic, I said it isn't the place for your logic.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: You have a point there... Hitler was an awesome guy. Gays aren't in any way awesome... I only compared them for your sake, since you probably believe in the nonsense that Hitler 'killed six million Jews'...

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: My logic = logic.

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: *headdesk* Just take your fears and logics and be on your way Mort, because this is pathetic. You shouldn't be here attacking people for their sexuality in the first place.

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: Hitler was a sick man! I seriously hope you aren't serious by that statement Mort

2009-09-24 [Linderel]: Seriously, guys. Just chill already.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: My fears? Attacking?

Why do you always want to assume that people who don't think like you are vicious and only think the way they do because they're afraid of you?

It's kind of like this:

Mort: If you look at statistics and reports, you can clearly see that getting stabbed in the face is painful.
You: No it isn't. You're just ignorant and racist of the face stabbing culture. You don't want people to get stabbed in the face because you're an idiot who is threatened by people who like getting stabbed in the face!
Mort: No, I'm not threatened by those people. I'm simply saying that it's not a very wise thing to do.
You: Burn in hell! Why did you even come to this wiki? We're here to support face stabbing!! DERKA DER! DERP DERP!! You am is stupid!!
Mort: lol... *eats ramen*... *idly rubs crotch*...

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: And Hitler was a great man. One of the bravest, most valiant warriors in all of history.

2009-09-24 [Gypsy Mystik]: Mort.... I know you remember me..... you are causing problems again aren't you?

Just ignore Mort everyone.... please....

2009-09-24 [Ravendust]: You know what? I'm going to do what [Linderel] suggested and chill, because this is going nowhere. You are getting more and more outrageous. Just step back and stop already.

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: I agree with Gypsy and Ravendust as well as Linderel it is pointless talking to him.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: Seriously man, what is wrong with you? I agree with Silver Moon, Ravendust, and Gypsy Mystik. This is getting ridiculous... we can't even reason with him, you guys...

2009-09-24 [Gypsy Mystik]: Mort.... we are talking about you.... I don't know this "him" you mentioned....


Just Stop It!

2009-09-24 [Alexi Ice]: ...*Cracks up laughing*...wow...I'm the only one who found the blue eyes white dragon thing to be funny...>>

Anyway, in a way he is right, this place was dead and it's gotten a few people to rally together against a common enemy. But the hitler thing is dumb, your the one who talks about facts. You don't think there are facts about hitler killing six million jews...?

*Looks around* You know...I thought this was about homosexuals. I don't see pedophiles, pirahnas, or Hitler anywhere...so why talk about it?

2009-09-24 [Silver Moon]: I think he craves attention but you are right Akane Ice this is about supporting gay marriage

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

And because it pertains to what I was saying.

2009-09-24 [Alexi Ice]: Ugh. religion. Don't get me started.

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: The article isn't about religion...

2009-09-24 [Mortified Penguin]: Well... not the first part anyway...

2009-09-24 [Gypsy Mystik]: SHUT UP ALL OF YOU ABOUT THIS!!

Let's all agree to disagree! [Mortified Penguin], believe what you wish, but you don't have to be on this wiki if you don't like homosexuals..... so please just leave, no one is keeping you here....

2009-09-25 [Alexi Ice]: Whoa, Gypsy, un-necessary. Considering you are no the owner of this page, yelling at us as a whole will get you nowhere.

2009-09-25 [Linderel]: I was seriously tempted to tell everyone to shut up, but passed... As for the dragon comment, that one amused me as well (my brain was offering up a whale just now... huh).

2009-09-25 [Gypsy Mystik]: Akane, I understand that.... I was just tired of all the conversation that had nothing to do truly with this wiki....

2009-10-06 [Alexi Ice]: That isn't true though, When you support something you are going to have to defend it. That's just a fact. People who don't belive in a cause have JUST AS MUCH right to fight it as people who do. If you don't want people like that here, then it should be a closed off page. If not, be prepared to fight.

2009-10-06 [Balthizar]: ^
[Balthizar] supports and approves the above message.

2009-10-06 [Alexi Ice]: <3

2009-11-05 [the mad hatter2]: i believe if your in love get married. My uncle joey is gay and hes the best guy ever^~^

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: You see... Marriage is a Christian thing. Gays aren't Christians. I'm cool with them having civil unions, but not marriages.

2009-11-05 [Alexi Ice]: Who says gays aren't Christians?

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: Well, the bible for one... I mean, you can't really claim to be a christian without believing in the bible. And you can't claim to believe in the bible if you're gay...

2009-11-05 [Alexi Ice]: I don't see why not. (Not that I'm gay. And not that I belive in the bible, because I don't. But still...no reason they can't) And yeah, your gonna' say well it's adam and eve not adam and steve and yeah, sure, it was. But that's to get the world started and now it is more than started and more than populated so a little evolution is only natural. Oh yeah, the bible doesn't BELIVE in evolution. *Rolls eyes* It's so...IDK, idiotic.

2009-11-05 [Balthizar]: Actually. The bible and evolution can walk hand in hand. For a day to a God, can be thousands of years to a human? He made Adama from the dust of the earth? sounds like evolution to me. Eve from Adam? Sounds like our original ansectors may have been A-sexual at some point. Just saying.

2009-11-05 [Balthizar]: Also Akane Ice, while you make some goo points, you may want to be more mature in its delivery.

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: I never said I believed in the bible, but I thought it was pretty clearly stated in Leviticus 18:22 when it said, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination". And God did kind of destroy Sodom for, among other things, Sodomy. Not only that, but the bible seems to frown upon sexual intercourse that isn't for the purpose of procreation. And seeing as how gay people can't procreate when they have sex, it's pretty much always a sin...

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: And the sun wasn't created until the 'fourth day', so who knows how long a day actually was for the first three days of creation.

2009-11-05 [Gypsy Mystik]: Do you no know what sodomy is?? Sodomy has nothing to do with being gay...

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: No, but the only thing gay people do is sodomy. Sodom was destroyed for its sexual perversion and general sinful nature. It wasn't just the gays, but the pedophiles, the rapists, and yes, even the velociraptors. Homosexual relationships are formed mainly from lust, not love.

2009-11-05 [Gypsy Mystik]: So lesbians have the 'natural' parts to have anal intercourse (for that is what sodomy is)?? I say not.... and it is not out of lust....but in love.....

It is lust if a guy or gal goes out just to pick up a one night stand.... and then the guy is a "hero" while the gal is just a whore.....

2009-11-05 [the mad hatter2]: hey [Mortified Penguin] im not being mean but im christain and i dont care if they get married. as long as there happy. god doesnt hate anyone look at hosea 11:9.

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: [the mad hatter2] - Hosea 11:9 is only about Ephraim. And it doesn't say anything about not hating him. "I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim." All God is saying here is that, even though he's angry, he's not going to stoop to the level of humans and take petty vengeance, because he's above that.

And there are countless verses in the bible that describe God as being angry and hateful. He killed all of the Jews in the desert for complaining and worshiping false idols. He wipes out entire armies, cities, and people on several different occasions. The bible says that God hates sin.

[Gypsy Mystik] - I didn't say only anal intercourse was what sodomy was. Actually, sodomy is defined as "the act of anal intercourse, oral intercourse, or bestiality." Gays are only able to commit sodomy, because they can't have vaginal intercourse.

And if gay relationships are only about love, then why are they incapable of being with a partner of the opposite sex? Why is a gay man only capable of loving another man? Is there any reason he can't fall in love with a woman too? I thought love wasn't about the gender, but about the person on the inside. If that's the case, a gay man should be able to fall in love with a woman, right?

2009-11-05 [the mad hatter2]: yeah gods not like us. he wont punish you for being gay. as long as you accept Jesus Christ your seen as pure and as white as snow

2009-11-05 [Gypsy Mystik]: You know what [Mortified Penguin]? I don't care what you say... and if you actually knew anything about the Bible and God and Jesus, you'd know that Christianity came out of Judism....it did not exist til after it...

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: [the mad hatter2] - If a person has accepted Jesus, they are not going to be gay. The homosexual lifestyle is a life based around a sin. Once you accept Jesus, you strive not to sin. You can't be a Christian and a homosexual, because the two are contradictory.

[Gypsy Mystik] - I'm well aware of that. What does it have to do with anything I'm saying though?

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: And [the mad hatter2]... you seem to think that God only wants us to be happy. That couldn't be further from the truth. God only wants for us to devote our lives to him. If he wanted everyone to be happy, then he wouldn't destroy so many lives. There would be no war, no death, no poverty, nothing like that. That's no the case though. He makes his people suffer. He does it to test their faith. Through trials and tribulations, he sculpts his people into exactly what they need to be. Like what he did to Job. By taking everything he had from him, God made Job's faith stronger.

2009-11-05 [Gypsy Mystik]: I said that because of you saying that God killed the Jews...

And just so you know, I am a Christian... I go to a Catholic church and hold Pagan/Wiccan beliefs... and I am Bi-Sexual... so there *Stikes tongue out at [Mortified Penguin]*

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: God did kill the Jews. In the desert. After he freed them from the Egyptians. All but like two of them were killed before making it out of the desert. The story is in the Old Testament/Torah... you know... with that Moses guy?

How can you consider yourself to be a Wiccan and a Christian, when the two heavily conflict? Wiccans worship other Gods and practice witchcraft (or at least pretend to). The christian bible is very much against witchcraft and the first of the ten commandments is "Do not have any other gods before me."

And of course you're a wiccan/pagan wannabe emo. Just look at yourself! From your picture, I could already tell you that you were one of those losers who pretend to be real Wiccans and Pagans. I'll bet you like to sit around with your wiccan friends and try to cast spells too, don't you? And I'll bet you're one of those people who absolutely adore Pirates of the Caribbean and Twilight. I bet you even love Paramore. You people are all exactly the same. You claim to hate people who conform to mainstream styles, yet you do the exact same. Seriously, get a life, you hypocritical loser... *eats ramen*...

Also, stop on by Bob's Diner. Our beef is to die for! Sometimes literally though. That's why I suggest the pork.

2009-11-05 [Alexi Ice]: Bathizar - Sorry *Hug*

Damn. I miss all the good arguments. Even though I started this one...>>

But Mort, I'm left to wonder, if you don't belive in the bible, why do you care if gays get married?

2009-11-05 [Mortified Penguin]: I don't. I just don't like it when they claim to be Christians and get offended when people say they aren't... *eats ramen*...

2009-11-05 [Alexi Ice]: Oh, I see. Makes sense. O.o *Ponders how a person can be a wiccan and a christian*

2009-11-05 [Gypsy Mystik]: [Mortified Penguin] that picture is from Halloween last year, and I was dress as a gypsy... and actually, there are alot of symbols used in christian churches that were orginially Pagan... and Pagans and Christians did coexist in the past before begots like you destroyed that....

I go to a Catholic church, sing in its choir and love it... I take communion... and if you look at the god stuff, the one almighty God is pulling all of the gods in the world together...

I believe that Jesus existed and I also believe that there are happenings out there that can't be explained by science or by the Bible... WHICH was writen by a group of men in Constanstinopal thank you very kindly

2009-11-06 [the mad hatter2]: dude got said he will provide for us to make us wait what was it????? oh yeah HAPPY

2009-11-06 [Balthizar]: Written by a group of men under the influence of God. Yes, alot of it is going to be translaited from God to man in a way perhaps God did intend. As well as laws and rules that are man made, and not from God. Thats a given. However, that does not make the Bible any less true. Science and the Bible can go hand in hand. Just like alot of things. Personally, I think every religion will take care of their own. Those without? Well, that I have no answer for. Also think that come Judgement day, some things we thought were sins will turn out to be alright, and vice versa.

2009-11-07 [Ravendust]: wow... seriously? Why with the trouble, yet again? And if you read the bible, Mort, you would know that the people with Moses committed a sin against the ten commandments by worshipping other gods. That made them unworthy of going to the 'promised land'...

In any case, I myself am a partial Christian and a Wiccan. Wiccanism isn't all about magic and crazily worshipping other gods. Get your facts straight, Mort, and stop being such a prat.

And stop with the name calling and eating ramen, you sin against the food that is ramen! And moreso, it's just annoying. Also, who cares about Bob's Diner? Leave it out of things. :-[

2009-11-07 [Balthizar]: This sounds more like a personal attack Raven, then entertaining into the debate, and adding to it intelligently. I sense some hidden grudges.

2009-11-07 [Ravendust]: No, not really, and it sounded more like an argument from my point of view. Especially not the attacks set on [Gypsy Mystik], the namecalling and finger pointing and whatnot. Don't try to 'sense' anything from me because in all honesty, you are wrong, and it's irritating.

2009-11-07 [Gypsy Mystik]: Thank you Raven *hugs*

2009-11-07 [Balthizar]: You seem overly sensative. That much is true. Your last bit, sounded personal, as if you've delt with Mort before. ( Trust me, I don't like him much. Hes kinda annoying, and tends to play Devils advocate too well. ) This debate though, isnt "trouble" Its a healthy discussion, being fed by numerous people. :/

2009-11-07 [Ravendust]: "And of course you're a wiccan/pagan wannabe emo. Just look at yourself! From your picture, I could already tell you that you were one of those losers who pretend to be real Wiccans and Pagans. I'll bet you like to sit around with your wiccan friends and try to cast spells too, don't you? And I'll bet you're one of those people who absolutely adore Pirates of the Caribbean and Twilight. I bet you even love Paramore. You people are all exactly the same. You claim to hate people who conform to mainstream styles, yet you do the exact same. Seriously, get a life, you hypocritical loser... *eats ramen*..."

That's a healthy discussion? That is a pointed attack on one of my friends.

And yeah, you can say it was personal, because you're trying to assume things about me.

And honestly, I'm assuming that almost nobody on this site has not had to deal with Mort. Even so, I'm in his chess tournament, so say nothing on that point. I don't do well when my friends are attacked...

Oh, and as an add on, I am sensitive, I'm a caring person, does it really make a difference?

2009-11-07 [Balthizar]: :/
Now, how the hell did I miss that from him? O.o
Oh..Ha. There it is. *frownie face*
Well then, he did fire the first cannon ball.
xD.
Silly Mort, turning this from fun stuff to negativity.
:/
Sadly, this is a discussion no one can win.
Another point.
Never assume, it makes an ass of you and me.
And I wasnt assuming anything.
It really was personal, by all evidence.
so...no asumption on my part xP.
And with how active Mort is, why would you assume no one has had to dealw ith him?
Shoot, he ruined a really fun game on this site for me and a few friends.

And it can make a difference. I'm a caring person, but I'm also laid back. Yes, I'm sensitive, but I don't get overly sensitive. ( Lies, I so do sometimes. )
Everything makes a difference to some small degree.
But uh Mort...you did step over the line first.
so, I retract my defense on your part, and move it back to no mans land.

2009-11-07 [Balthizar]: Text wall crits you for 999,999,782. You die. Text wall gains 21 xp. Text wall grows to level 2! Text wall wants to learn paragraph extention. But Text wall already knows 4 moves!
A little bit of comedy to lighten the mood. This page could use some.

2009-11-07 [Alexi Ice]: *Got bored and left already*

By the way, Balthizar, I think your cool!

2009-11-07 [Gypsy Mystik]: [Balthizar], Raven did not say that almost nobody has had to deal with Mort.... she said, "And honestly, I'm assuming that almost nobody on this site has NOT had to deal with Mort. Even so, I'm in his chess tournament, so say nothing on that point. I don't do well when my friends are attacked..."

As in everyone has... but that was an easy misreading... *hugs [Balthizar] and [Ravendust]*

2009-11-07 [Balthizar]: Oh eh..I work 9 hour shifts every day. :/ I'm either just aboutt o start one, or getting off one when I get on ET. v.v. Forgive me if I miss stuff, or missread ><.
And thank you ^^ *hugs backs*

2009-11-07 [Gypsy Mystik]: I forgive you lol and you're welcome ^_^

2009-11-08 [Mortified Penguin]: Aaaanyway...

"if you read the bible, Mort, you would know that the people with Moses committed a sin against the ten commandments by worshipping other gods."

I know. That's exactly what I was saying. God killed the Jews in the desert because he's a vengeful God. He killed them for worshiping other gods. And knowing this, you still consider yourself a member of a religion with other gods?

And as for me personally attacking your friends, so what? It was an accurate statement and I stand by it.

But what's not offensive is the service at Bob's Diner. Our waiters are college educated and the best in their fields. If you order something complex and annoying, you better believe you're going to get exactly what you asked for! Something complex and annoying! Come on down and try some of our new, tooth chippingly good diamond onion rings!

2009-11-08 [Mortified Penguin]: Besides. If you guys were actual Christians, you wouldn't return any personal attacks. As Jesus said, "turn the other cheek." And I do recall the bible saying "vengeance is mine saith the lord."

Even though as Christians you're instructed to be humble, you aren't and instead attempt to insult me back. But I'm not surprised... You don't obey or listen to any of the rest of the bible, so why should you obey that rule?

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: I have a simple question then Mort... Why treat others the way you do?  "Do on to others as thou would have others do onto you"

2009-11-08 [Mortified Penguin]: Because it gets a reaction. And I don't have to obey the rules of the bible, because I never claimed to be a Christian.

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: the quote I gave is just common sense.... I haven't made assumptions about you... nor have I attacked you for not being Christian... but I have to say, you don't know me... you are the one that assumed you knew what I was through a picture that clearly says it was from Halloween of last year...

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Thats not the only thing he has attacked though. He has since changed gears, and is targeting you for being a Christian, and a wiccan. You hide behind the bible, and use it in your own defense, while breaking its own laws. Which, is what he is getting at.

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Now, to combat Morts use of the ten commandments.
When Jesus came to earth, he did say that all commandments before him were to be done away with. That would include the Ten. Only commandments made after his birth would then be viable.

2009-11-08 [Ravendust]: Seriously, Mort? Gypsy already explained that point- and if you look at the god stuff, the one almighty God is pulling all of the gods in the world together...

we're not worshipping other gods and leaving God out, you know nothing of being wiccan, so stop making assumptions.

also, as quoted by you: And as for me personally attacking your friends, so what? It was an accurate statement and I stand by it.

You're assumptions are not correct, and they are not something to stand by. You're comments and reactions... They're ridiculous.

And humanity has never been a peaceful race, you ought to know that, surely. God says turn the other cheek, sure, but are we really here seeking vengeance? No, I don't think so.

And as for your assuming that Gypsy was taking a quote from the bible, well, that's just beyond humorous.

You should know by now that friends stick by one another, I'm not going to sit back and watch you make innacurate assumptions about other people.

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Actually, I know a decent bit about being wiccan.
Thou shalt not worship any other Gods save me.
Meaning, you do not worship anyone else.
God, and god only.
Wether he is pulling the other gods in or not does not matter.
God himself is the only one who should mean anything to you, and is the only one you should pray too.
Also, you whip around the assumption word waay too much.
Like the guy from Princes' Bride whipping around Inconcievable way to much.
Anyone want a peanut?xD

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Also, when you attack Mort back, you are infact seeking vengeance. Even if it is in the defense of a friend, it is still vengeance.

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: And Treat others how thou wish to be treated, is actually in the bible, if only worded slightly differently. Thoguh, it is totally viable for Mort to assume she was attempting to quote the bible.

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Also, the fact you three are using the bible to debate against each other is pretty amusing, and I give tons of props for pulling it off.

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: I wasn't using the bible when I made the quote... I was quoting family... and i've only read one book in the bible and that was the book of Ruth ...

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Oh no, I'm just saying why Mort would think that.
being as it is a biblical esque quote.

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: So wait, you are defending being a Christian and a wiccan, while having not read the bible? In order to properly defend yourself, you should know as much about what you claim to be. :/
No wonder Mort is drawing blood.

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: you do not have to have read the bible to be Christian.... yu just have to be that Jesus had existed.... which I do believe that.... I just don't believe everything about him.... or of other things spoken about at the church I go to...

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: See, there in lies your problem.
To believe in something, you know little of, is foolish.
No, you are right. You don't have to read the bible to be a Christian.
However, how can you be a Christian, if you know next to nothing of the man you supposedly beleive in?
You claim to have faith in him, and believe him, and yet you contradict everything he stands for.
Everything about him? If you havent read the bible, what do you -know- of him?
I honestly don't care what people believe in.
What I do care about is people knowing what they stand for.
If you know almost nothing about what you stand for.
Sit down.
Supporting something, when you don't understand it, is folly.
I'm sorry, but it's true.
And I'm not trying to be mean or anything, just honest >,<.
Because I looka t what I type, and I can see how it can be taken as mean, but I don't mean it as so ><.

2009-11-08 [Ravendust]: I use assume because it is the proper word to use when I use it, so it's not being over-used. And Ihave read the entire bible, thank you.

Still you see it as vengeance, but it is only myself trying to prove a point, not take vengeance. Get it right, please.

Also, I don't pray, and I don't worship. I seek guidance as it is necessary and pay my pennances to who I am. It is how I am. It is entirely possible to be a wiccan/christian mix, as Gypsy and myself both seem to be the same way. I attend church and I perform my rites as the seasons pass, but that does not mean I am in the wrong for doing as I see fit.

Also, sorry to say, but you post WAAAY too much. Get it all out at once, you may find that easier.

Also, the not knowing anything about being wiccan comment, it was not for you [Balthizar]. Just to clear that up.

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Main Entry: ven·geance
Pronunciation: \ˈven-jən(t)s\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from venger to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge — more at vindicate
Date: 14th century
: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : retribution

— with a vengeance 1 : with great force or vehemence <undertook reform with a vengeance>
2 : to an extreme or excessive degree <the tourists are back—with a vengeance>

Tis vengeance. No, you are trying to prove a point, however, by insulting Mort back, you were being vengeful. Tada.
Also, my mind is a bit wacky. Things come and go. Often times, I don't think to post something, untill I've already done so.
See, the difference between the two of you is this.
You seem to know -something- of the christian religion.
She however, seems to know little.
While you can defend your own stand point.
She cannot.
My point is, do not claim something, if you do not posse the knowledge to back it up.
Thats my point.
I actually am in a similar boat as you, though its not quite the same. More on that later, right now, i need a nice long drive.

2009-11-08 [Ravendust]: Yes, I see what vengeance is. But I wasn't doing anything dealing with punishment or vengeance so it makes the point null.

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: I never said I believe in what he did... I just believe that a man, a normal man named Jesus existed...but I am a scholar of mythology and beliefs and science, so I know how the natural ways of the earth and weather can be believed to be something like a mireacle... though I also believe that there are 'things' out there that can't be explained, like I had said before...

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: No, actually it does not.
You insulting him back is the punishment, and, you are doing so in retaliation for what he did.
Thus, vengence.

So, if you do not believe in what he did Gypsy, how are you a christian?

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: I said it all in this simply statement: "though I also believe that there are 'things' out there that can't be explained, like I had said before..."

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: That does not make you a Christian. A Christian, is someone who beleive in Christ, and accepts him as their one true saviour and God.
:/
hence why I'm not a Christian.
By definition.
Because well...I butt heads with everyone too much.
The whole supporting gay rights would piss off too many mormons.

2009-11-08 [Mortified Penguin]: If you don't believe in every part of the Christian bible, you can't be a Christian. To simply believe that a man named 'Christ' existed is not being a Christian.

The entire scripture, according to the scripture itself, is divinely inspired. Every word of it was written by God himself through the prophets. To question a single word of it is to question God himself. By saying you believe that most of the bible is true, but some of it is questionable, is to call God a liar. All this is according to the bible itself.

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: Mort, just stop it... I am what I am... you can't change it....

2009-11-08 [Mortified Penguin]: But what you claim to be is a paradox. It doesn't make sense. And if you're sure of what you believe in, then surely you can withstand some questioning of your beliefs. You are sure of yourself, right? Then why can't you debate your beliefs openly?

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: you are debating, using a belief you don't believe in... how about that for a paradox?

2009-11-08 [Silver Moon]: Is there a reason this wiki keeps being used for arguments? This is a support wiki please take your arguments elsewhere guys....

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: Actually, it makes sense for there to be debaites on a support wiki.

To Gypsy.
He atleast is using a belief he understands, and knows about.
While what you claim to be is a paradox yes, you don't seem to really know much about it.
Which is what he is getting at.

Though, at this point, the debait has strayed from "Gay Marriage" to " How can one be Christian and Wiccan?" an interesting leap. Now, if we could curve this back to the topic of this wiki...

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: Mort's argument was that you can't be Christian and be gay...

I may not know the bible that well, but I do know enough to use it... and I know history... what Mort most likely doesn't know is that at the time of the 'writing' of the bible by man, it was morally okay for a man to sleep with another man or to be with another man as long as the first said man had an heir to carry on his name.... it was a practiced used before the writing of the bible and a practice used after the writing of the bible...

and to the "How can one be Christian and Wiccan?" it is possible, there are many who have come from Christian backgrounds, having gone to church and read the bible (I have at least read one book fully, and I do go to a Catholic church but am Not in anyway catholic) that have moved to a very open minded religion such as Wicca/Paganism and still to this day go to the church they were raised in... 

I come from a Southern Baptist and Lutherean background, go to a Catholic church where I sing in the choir, I have both Christian and Wiccan/Pagan beliefs and I'm Bi-sexual... and proud of it

2009-11-08 [Mortified Penguin]: "at the time of the 'writing' of the bible by man, it was morally okay for a man to sleep with another man"

So what? That doesn't have anything to do with what the bible actually says though.

And no. You cannot be Christian and Wiccan, because the Christian faith doesn't allow for that.

2009-11-08 [Linderel]: This is getting just a little bit repetitive.

2009-11-08 [Balthizar]: It's bible bashing in essence.
No one can win, and the same thing will be said.

And you are right and wrong.
His argument was that you cant be christian, and be gay/wiccan as well.

The bible does teach you cannot serve two masters.
It's God, or not.
He does not share the lime light.

Also, just because at the time of the writing, it was okay, does not mean it was okay with God.
With man sure, with God no.
Thats the difference.
Also, just because you go to a Catholic church, where you sing choir and take part of communion, does not make you a christian.
Tell me, what Christian beliefs do you have?

2009-11-08 [Gypsy Mystik]: I don't have to defend myself... I have my beliefs, and I know what I am...

2009-11-09 [Mortified Penguin]: [Gypsy Mystik] - Do you believe in the bible 100%? Do you believe every word of it... yes or no?

2009-11-09 [Balthizar]: Okay Mort, you are getting too close to going overboard now..

2009-11-09 [Mortified Penguin]: It's a simple yes or no question.

2009-11-11 [Silver Moon]: This is having little to do with the wiki at this point...and as [Linderel]said it is getting repetitive...

2010-01-04 [Rainbows And Scene Kids]: Cbs reading all that...but I think I get the jist.
If you dont agree with the forums message just dont post :)
Simple.

2010-01-04 [the mad hatter2]: thats what i think

2010-02-01 [Mortified Penguin]: ...*eats ramen*...

2010-04-16 [wicked fae mage]: <img:http://www.elftown.com/stuff/z/182611/nikkis%2520random%2520image%2520upload/i1259604451_6.jpg?y=0&x=300>

:D

2010-04-16 [Mortified Penguin]: I love rainbows! :D

But I ******* HATE tables.

2010-04-16 [wicked fae mage]: I love rainbows too :3
Tables haven't done anything to me as of late. But they are tricksy and in need of watching.

2010-04-16 [Mortified Penguin]: As for rainbow tables, I'm rather impartial toward them. As long as they don't start going around bragging about having four legs, like wooden tables often do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_table

2010-04-16 [wicked fae mage]: They look complicated

2010-04-16 [Mortified Penguin]: Yes... but that's just what they want you to think. They're bright and confusing, like a rainbow. But devious like a table. If you aren't careful around them, they'll get your tripcode! And even your cat! ...*eats ramen*... those poor, unsuspecting cats...

2010-04-16 [wicked fae mage]: I have two cats! *gulps*

2010-04-16 [Mortified Penguin]: For now, my son... for now.

2010-04-16 [wicked fae mage]: Well, they'd bring Gracey back because she's annoying and Sen'jin would fight. No worries.

2010-04-16 [Alexi Ice]: Devious like a table. Mort, have I ever told you I lurve you O.o Epic.

2010-05-06 [Avalyn Bastian]: How do you join?

2010-05-06 [Mortified Penguin]: A better question is why would you join?

2010-05-06 [Avalyn Bastian]: I support gay marraige. I have tons of friends who are gay and i love them to death! plus I like both sexes :)

2010-05-06 [Silver Moon]: Anyone can join but you need to contact the owner ^-^

2010-05-06 [Mortified Penguin]: "Was last seen 1259 days ago."

Good luck with that.

2010-05-06 [Mortified Penguin]: You don't actually have to contact the owner, just add your name to Members 1401-1500.

2010-05-06 [Avalyn Bastian]: ah ok :) thanks

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